Luea Ritter: Recreating regenerative patterns as ancestors of the future (ep304)
What does it mean to practice ‘systems sensing’ and lean into our different ways of knowing? How do we slow down in the urgency of the climate crisis to recreate new patterns of being for the future?
In this episode, we are honored to welcome Luea Ritter to Green Dreamer. Luea is a process steward, action researcher, and co-founder of Collective Transitions (Instagram; Medium), an action-learning and research organization dedicated to building shared capacity for fostering and maintaining transformational shifts. Her work weaves societal change processes, trauma and healing work, leadership, and earth-based wisdom traditions to cultivate individual and collective capacities. She has developed a high sensitivity for context-based cultural and social dynamics through a diverse medley of work fields.
Musical feature: Trust The Sun by Prove Me Wrong by Luna Bec
“We cannot move forward if we continue to pretend that we are separate from nature. We cannot create a new paradigm if we are still highly rooted in the sense that we are on top and can exploit and design whatever we want. We cannot create healthy solutions if we don’t start loving complexity and embracing the ‘not knowing’ as a truly lived experience.”
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Transcript
Note: Green Dreamer is a community-powered multimedia journal exploring our paths to collective healing, ecological regeneration, and true abundance and wellness for all. The values, views, and opinions of our diverse guests do not necessarily reflect those of Green Dreamer. Please do your own additional research on the information, resources, and statistics shared. This transcript has been edited for brevity and clarity.
Kamea Chayne: To set the stage for this conversation, I would love for you to begin by sharing a bit about your upbringing and your multifaceted background that guided you to create Collective Transitions.
Luea Ritter: I grew up in Switzerland, close to the mountains. Nature always had a very special place in my life. My father was a mountain guide, and we spent many, many weekends and summers climbing up mountains and through wild territories and uncharted passes. We always found these sneaky little passes with my father that were not indicated on the maps. Those experiences gave me a deep respect for the forces of nature—knowing that if there are avalanches, you better not go close, and if there is a lot of water coming down or if there are storms announced, to watch out—basically knowing that in the mountains, the weather is so fast-shifting that you always need to be aware of your surroundings and you must constantly be reading the weather patterns, reading the soil, and reading the traces of what may have happened a few days or weeks ago.
That instilled in us humility and a recognition that we’re little human beings compared to all the powerful raw elements. But it also taught us that there can be a respectful relationship between humans and the earth. Just because it’s wild doesn’t mean we shouldn’t go there. Rather, there is a respectful approach and relationship that you're building in order to understand the land that you're walking on, what beauty is made of, what your responsibility is, and also where you should be more respectful and caring.
There's another lesson in that that informs me strongly: You never go into these wild territories alone. You always have friends and trusted companions with you as you are walking. They’re there with a rope when you’re going over edgy places. And there is that sense of trust—that we need to work together as a whole. It's not just that the one who is the fastest speeds up and the others who are maybe slower for whatever reason fall behind. No, we care for each other in both directions. I think that's a very strong impulse.
Also from both of my ancestor grandparents, I gained a sense of actually being a steward of a practice. Both of them were cheesemakers, and one set of my grandparents were also farmers.
There is this sense that although you may have been given property or a cheesemaking factory, you are stewarding it on behalf of the community. You're in a responsible relationship with the farmers who bring the milk, with the clients that come to your shop, and also with the places you would sell the cheese to afterward. There’s a sense of co-ownership and making sure that what you leave behind is at least as good as what you have received from the previous generation. We have no language for that in our culture, and I think I was deprived for a long time—seeing these patterns and being fascinated and finding them normal, but then having no language to actually speak about it. That led me to quite a big struggle.
There are things I took for granted. It seems in society, closer to the city, that many things are no longer practiced or remembered or acknowledged and respected. But I have no language to express that.
My mother is a physiotherapist, so I was taught from a young age that you care for those who are not well, you take care of each other, and you take care of your body. I was taught to have a healthy relationship with creating the preconditions of wellbeing. But as I got older, I saw that some of these practices that I was introduced to are not common and not normal.
Not many people go and learn from nature through homeopathy or things like that to heal our systems if they are off-balance. That led me to two tracks of understanding: First, what are the languages and how do we name these things, and also, acknowledging that the world is so much more complex than we can ever grasp through sectoral approaches or siloed solution-building. Another important track came from the deep sense I had from a very young age to live in community with other beings.
Sometimes, the nuclear family felt too small for me, and I was longing for another form of cohabiting land. I was searching a lot in ecovillages and intentional communities and other alternative forms of living. I found quite a few that were, on the one hand, very inspiring but, on the other hand, still struggling with similar patterns underneath of domination, top-down control, power games, etc., which is normal. I know now that this is just part of life. But I was always fascinated by what’s underneath.
Why do we pretend we live an alternative life? What are the structures underneath that actually lead to patriarchy, capitalism, our disconnect from nature, our disconnect from even ourselves?
That led me in quite a few years to this question. Yes, I can go through a transformational process. Yes, I can work on my own healing. Yes, I can be in a healthy relationship with others. But it doesn't add up if everyone works on their own transformational process—we won’t all be transformed and have done this big transition together. There are other muscles, collective transitions, muscles that we need to sharpen, that we need to activate—reactivate actually. It's not something we have to build anew but actually remember from our forefathers and the current indigenous traditions that are still alive as an example.
Transition is something that is much more complex, much more unknown to all of us. And there is only one way to go through it together—by having languages that we can use to orient each other and name what is going on and what happens. And also to create a pattern language that can help us navigate these uncertain times that we are surely now in from a place of not only going through it but maybe also acknowledging that we are meant to embrace complexity. There is beauty in that, and there is healing power in recreating spaces for not only us as individuals, not only for our neighbors, but also for the whole society, including the environment, to settle in and thrive.
Kamea Chayne: Wow, there's so much in what you just said. Speaking to complexity, in describing the multilayered problems that we're facing today, you've used this term “polycrisis”, which describes a situation where there is not one single big problem, but rather a series of overlapping and interconnected problems.
I think understanding how and why you view the challenges that we're confronting today as a “polycrisis”—rather than, for example, the climate crisis as this one big problem and our social injustices as another big problem—helps us to understand your approach at Collective Transitions. Could you speak more to the limitations of seeing our varied crises as being siloed and separate, needing people with different fields of expertise to focus on, compared to understanding all of it as a part of a polycrisis? And how might this shift the ways that we seek to address the problems?
Luea Ritter:
One deep understanding I have that's highly informed by my systemic constellation background and by Zulu traditions is that when you acknowledge that in a system there is a wrinkle—a conflict, a challenge, a symptom of being unhealthy or unbalanced—it’s not just the responsibility of one person, tribe, or family to address the issue, but it’s a responsibility for the whole community.
We must acknowledge that we are all deeply related to the system, so therefore, each of us has co-ownership—maybe not in what actually happened, but in that it led to an imbalance that then, after a while, created unhealthy symptoms.
My perspective also strongly comes from alternative medicine that doesn't see a person as having a singular problem with, for example, their gut that can be fixed in isolation to make everything else fine—but instead, knowing that my gut is the messenger that wants to tell me something more that I may not be consciously able to process.
So with that, I also look at the different issues that we are facing today on many different scales, like you said, in many different places. An iceberg is often the metaphor we use to acknowledge that some symptoms are visible but underneath there is a greater whole structure. We can also use the metaphor of the root system of a tree that is beneath the soil that we have no idea about because we just can’t go that deep—we can only guess that there are probably sources underneath that feed these roots. And then above the ground they create illnesses.
In order to understand which healthy solution-building processes would be meaningful, our approach is about acknowledging the root causes. For example, I can never deny I have parents. I can never say I'm my parents’ parent because they're my parents. Often in systems that are unhealthy, there's some twist. And if we acknowledge that and include, again, the parts of a system that belong to it—in a nation, that would mean not excluding certain tribes or certain people and not denying access to a few people versus others—then the system itself starts to rebalance.
So if I just look at one crisis in itself as one slight, I would deny that it also has an effect on another part of the larger system, but may be showing itself in another form or shape.
That powerful and sometimes highly challenging inquiry process—asking what actually happened that led us to this situation—is diving into millennia of trauma-informed patterns as well. I find it highly fascinating, not only because it is fascinating, but also because I honestly don't see another way than just being with what is and daring to ask us these very uncomfortable questions.
Kamea Chayne: This is all very affirming. People oftentimes have a tendency to want to simplify complex issues to try to make sense of them so that we can come up with a simple fix. In terms of the climate crisis, people talk about CO2 levels—that's what people largely fixate on. But I think we really do have to unpack and sit with the complexity and the nuance of everything if we truly want to address the polycrisis that we're facing today.
Collective Transitions focuses on supporting the collective capacities that are needed for shifting mindsets, beliefs, and deeply ingrained patterns. And this applies at all levels, as you mentioned, from families to organizations to cultures to humanity at large. Your work is grounded in four spheres: restoring relationships, healing history, developing collective capacities for navigating complexity, and creating spaces for cross-sector collaboration and learning. This is a very specific framework, so I wonder if you could share the story of how it came to be and particularly how the emphasis on reconnecting with nature and place developed.
Luea Ritter: Yes, so the story of the four spheres is basically that I have worked in many different sectors, all around how to create a better world. I’ve approached this challenge through the energy sector, the community building sector, the art sector, the healing sector, etc. And what I found fascinating again and again is that similar patterns and similar blockages hit the teams that were starting initiatives at these organizations. And I became curious from seeing these patterns over several years. In the beginning it was not so obvious, but over time, it started to dawn on me. There are many people who focus on how we can heal our connection to land and place, how we can actually perceive ourselves as one species with no ecological divides between us as humans and nature. And often we have this tendency to place ourselves on top of nature. But rather, we should see the commonalities and see ourselves as nature.
There are a lot of people who work around collective healing, looking at the patterns that led to where we are today. There are a lot of people working on complexity and how we navigate the “space between” and what kind of capacities can be built and how we deal with systems thinking, etc. And there are a lot of people focusing on creating spaces for collaboration, focusing on core creation even, and how we can strengthen each other through mutual support. What I find fascinating, because I kind of felt like I moved between different fields and connected to different networks across the globe, is that none of these varied approaches ever came together. They all bring a specific, unique gift. It's not to say that one is more important than the other. But I was like, why do we not show that? Because they're all so important – we can't create solutions if we don't understand where we come from and have not created at least an acknowledgment of what happened before that led to now. We cannot move forward if we continue to pretend that we are separate from nature. We cannot create a new paradigm if we are still highly rooted in the sense that we are on top of the chain and can exploit and design whatever we want. We cannot create healthy solutions if we don't start loving complexity and embracing the ‘not knowing’ as a truly lived experience. That's sometimes uncomfortable, but there is so much beauty in it as well. And we also don't get there if we don't join forces and actually go beyond collaboration, just for your sake and my sake, but actually for the sake of learning how to be in a space of true cooperation, not only with each other as humans, but with all forces of life that are present within a situation.
And so that was kind of what sprouted this four spheres approach. They all need to be tended within a project or an initiative or a movement that wants to really, truly be dedicated to one of the forms of societal change. They need to be tended to along the way. And so when you ask specifically about the elements of land and place, this is probably also rooted in my experience with trauma therapy. Most traumas, at least so far, and this may change with the global climate crisis, are humans affecting trauma on other humans. And so if I have a deep wound and pain – I don't want to only say trauma because sometimes I don't need to invoke the trauma dynamic – that is inflicted upon me or I experienced it from a human to me, I may not trust the human sphere as much.
I had the chance to grow up close to nature, and for me, it's always a given that there were moments in my life when I've struggled with how to be human, how to relate to other human beings. In those times, trees and stones and forests were my friends, my family. They helped me to get through these waves of like, what does it even mean to be a human being in all these disrupted societies that I was born into?
And so for me, I knew how to relate to nature, I knew how to relate to something that is not only human. And so it dawned on me when I started to work with people that did not have this strong connection because of having maybe lived in the city and never having strengthened that connection, that there were sometimes fewer resources available to them to deal with the shocks that were inflicted on them by other humans.
And so that was also a realization: in order to start a healthy ground that feels like I have resources under my feet and a connection to land – and with that, I'm also talking about people who maybe have migrated and are finding new roots or come from families from two different backgrounds – those people may actually create a whole other system of relating to land and finding their place of belonging.
But for me, I come from the place my forefathers have lived for generations. This is it. This is my ground. Nobody will ever be able to question that. That’s what it means to be rooted. That is grounded.
But even that conviction gets shaken when I think about how I grew up and how I am a human being on this planet. It may shake, but I have a strong foundation. So through my own personal journey and then meeting people, I realized how crucial it is to know that I can rely on nature to be at my back, to be on my feet, to hold me, even when all the rest seems to fall apart.
Kamea Chayne: You mentioned trauma earlier – I think a lot of times trauma therapy largely focuses on healing at the individual level. So I wonder, how can we tap into our collective consciousness of a sort of collective trauma that we may hold, but not even be aware that we're holding? And because work at the individual and collective levels might look different, what could healing the past at a collective humanity level look like?
Luea Ritter: So first of all, this is a long process. This is inviting the multi-generational approach. I like the approach that natives have of the seven generations, for example. Because if there are layers of trauma-informed patterns that are centuries old, I do not want to create the expectation that I and a few of my collaborators can heal that in just a few years.
I think a big thing that I'm noticing in the work that I and many others are doing, what is so beautiful at this moment, is that all things are becoming more visible and people are working on it and things get named and chewed upon and brooded through and fermented and digested in many different ways. And we need many different practices. There is not one approach that can lead us. It starts with the individual on a daily basis setting an intention by showing up. And then, of course, it's also that shared intention in smaller or bigger groups of how can we, with our actions, create a sane island or an island of sanity, as Margaret Wheatley also names it. Where in a way, our embodied experience as individuals and as a group, through an experience that feels different than before, actually kind of shifts the DNA or the cellular memory in our body. I can start to feel like, oh, we don't have to be afraid of X, Y, Z anymore, or we don't have to doubt something anymore, or we can actually start to speak freely in a way that we are heard and understood and welcomed.
Systemic constellation listens to the field, we say the “knowing field”, of what it needs at this very moment versus what I think or what we think together is the best solution. And often just by naming that which has happened and just by acknowledging that it has happened and bringing it into our shared awareness and consciousness, it often releases, in my experience, some of that tension, some of that anger. It releases some of these energies that we have used to pretend it's not there, or deny it happened or diminish what happened. We expand our capacity to be with what is and to hold that for a moment at least.
So I don't have an expectation that we will heal everything, but rather that we can create pockets where we feel we have created a new experience for our system. To feel how things could be different than how we may have grown up or been conditioned.
Kamea Chayne: In a piece that you wrote about the core assumptions that underlie Collective Transitions’ mission, you said, “Using our minds only has failed us. It is time to activate and combine our many ways of knowing.” My inkling is that a lot of people listening to this conversation might feel it to be a little distant or abstract. And if so, it might be because we're so trained to primarily utilize our minds to make sense of the physical world. So perhaps touching upon what you call “systems sensing”, how would you expand upon the many ways of knowing that a lot of us have lost touch with, especially as they relate to our polycrisis?
Luea Ritter: First of all, I would say that we all have them still. It's not that we got cut off from them, but we may not have had the chance to train them much or get stimulated to find them interesting. Or maybe we’ve forgotten how to use some of them. But for most of these ways of knowing, I think we actually still use them, we just don't know that we use them.
One of them is, for example, we could call it intuition or knowing. For example, ooh that sounds dangerous or I don’t trust that or wow this is really fantastic, I need to absolutely go there. These are things that we sometimes don’t process in our minds, but actually our body responds naturally to them. For instance, when we get goosebumps or when something in our body makes us feel shocked. These are natural responses to what our body picks up as a sensory organ.
When we talk about the many ways of knowing, with some of them, our body knows if we dare to listen to it, and that means, of course, slowing down a little bit. In a fast-paced society, it's sometimes really hard to give space to these more silent voices that actually know what's best, but that we may override by rushing and also through the expectation of performing and being competitive.
So that's one thing, and then there is also this other way of knowing: the relational knowing. We can feel, oh, wow, this is a wonderful person or I feel warmth in your proximity or hmm, this person I'm not so sure about. Not from a judging place, of course, but just feeling, oh, I need a bit more space here.
For example, these days when I walk through not busy train stations or places where a lot of people would have met before the pandemic, I'm navigating. I'm like, oh, okay, how do I go through these masses of people? And I may pick up a lot and feel like, oh, this environment trains me more than if I'm in the forest.
That's another way that my system knows where to recharge and where I may not get so many resources. And a big part of that is just paying attention to these signals. That's the first thing that needs to happen. Oh, I'm holding my breath. Why am I holding my breath? Maybe I feel a bit insecure. Oh, that's good to notice.
And then, of course, the more we understand it, the more we can use it to better navigate complexity. For example, I know if I'm coming into this room, this room has this particular effect on me, or if I go in this meeting, I may feel more secure if I take a few deep breaths before and consciously prepare myself for meeting someone I feel a little bit stressed by.
These are ways of knowing that inform me of how to navigate and how to make choices. How to show up in a way that serves me and centers me. And of course, if I'm more centered, I also radiate more centredness into my family or my workspace.
So this is where I would suggest starting. And then of course, the more and more you can use that system sensing approach, which means you're not only trying to analyze and trying to understand more factually the relationships between each element and the dynamics. But also you allow yourself to use your whole system, your whole body as a sensing organ, as an instrument, to actually step into that system, to feel how it must feel from the inside out, which is from our point of view, the system thinking approach is a very important, complementary approach to the mental capacity approach. It's not to say that we should forget our mental capacities. No, no, no. It's just to say if they're part of a circle of different ways of knowing, they can actually do a fantastic job without pretending they all have to cover and give us the solution going forward.
Kamea Chayne: There's a beautiful quote you shared by Donella Meadows, which reads “We can't control systems or figure them out, but we can dance with them.” It really speaks to everything that you just mentioned.
Something I'm thinking about is what systems sensing looks like in the context of our current dominant capitalistic system that we've seemingly locked our modern society into, because I wonder if it matters what our values and worldviews are before we get into this work. So, for example, what if people ground their realities in this socially constructed system of endless economic growth instead of in the reality of our living systems? And so their systems sensing might summon them to keep supporting the growth of this extractive system because that's what the system is calling for. But ultimately, this is something that works against the living system that we're inhabiting.
Luea Ritter: I don't know, because I don't believe in these worldviews. So if some of your listeners would feel they belong to that category, I would love to have a conversation with them. But in my understanding, if you start to use your other ways of knowing alongside other people, ideally, then you start to sense more of how a system feels that includes your own body first. So if I were in someone else’s shoes, I would try to shift my worldview and start to understand that expansive growth at the cost of life is not the only way to grow, but that there is another way to grow that is very in tune with the whole system, that acknowledges the regenerative forces that are active out there.
So I wonder… if you truly started to open up to system sensing, would you start to get clues like, oh, wait a second, that doesn't work anymore – my mindset and belief system? It's a question, but I have no answer to it. But I’m curious.
Kamea Chayne: Yeah, and I mean, certainly as people keep supporting this sort of endless economic growth, I think it's quite a dehumanizing system in what it calls for people to do and how it exploits labor. So I think as we start to be more in tune with our different ways of knowing, we might also personally sense that the system itself is not compatible with life. It could be very grounding when people get into this work.
So much of what we just discussed about tapping into our many ways of knowing feels like it requires us to quiet our minds and to slow down. But in times of crisis like confronting the climate crisis, a lot of people's reactions are to shift into emergency mode. And our minds might become loud and cluttered as we're trying to scramble to figure out what we can do to address these issues as soon as possible. So as you focus on the “how” of everything, what can you tell us in terms of the patterns of this type of reactive response and whether it's even compatible with the new patterns of regenerative solutions that we wish to co-create?
Luea Ritter: Yes, indeed, this approach needs another pace, because in order to pick up all these different signals and make sense of them, both in an individual and a collective way, our Western mind can sometimes act as a huge slowdown and make us less efficient and worse at reacting in the moment.
I know that I need to create healthy social fabrics inside me and with my team – with the people I'm working with and I'm cultivating trust and connection with. We’re helping each other, being there for each other, understanding across divides, talking to people who have different opinions, creating trends of cross-sector connection. We can't, in my opinion, hold the intensities that we are living with today.
When I look at my friends in Africa, where I’ve done some work, they’ve had a lot of hardship and a lot of challenges for a long time. The West is now catching up to them. There's one fascinating thing that constantly touches me and brings up tears and it’s their ability to keep dancing and laughing, celebrating together, knowing you have your family, that is not just your blood family, but calling the people of my village my uncles, my brothers, my sisters. Being at each other's backs, being there for each other. And knowing how to sustain these relationships amidst many challenges.
I don't want to romanticize that, and I know also that there are a lot of fractures there as well. But this support no longer exists where I come from in the powerful way that I’ve witnessed it elsewhere. It can be regained, and often what I find beautiful is when we go through really intense crises, then it comes up to the surface again. So earthquakes or natural disasters or big, more collective crises – and many people like Rebecca Solnit have written about this – actually reactivate that innate knowing, of hey, we can only get through this together when we hold each other and support each other and when we are at each other's backs.
Kamea Chayne: In looking ahead, you say that we are the ancestors of the future and that we may not be able to see all the collective transformations that we wish to see in our lifetimes. But we can certainly lay the groundwork and preconditions for future patterns.
I find this mindset shift really relieving – just recognizing that we are but one small part, though a very important part, of our collective transformation and transition. And so on this note, can you share a project you've been working on where you know that you probably won't see the end goal in your lifetime? What has your work laying down the preconditions for those changes looked like? And then to close us out, feel free to share any calls to action or final things that you want to share with our listeners.
Luea Ritter: I think that all the projects I’ve worked on over the last few years have this quality of being for the long term. They don’t involve me being attached to an outcome or having complete success.
When you asked this question, the first project that came to mind is called Nile Journeys, which is a platform for transdisciplinary, translocal, transboundary collaboration in the Nile Basin. This includes the 11 countries of the Nile from north to south and south to north. It’s a region that is under a great deal of pressure as a result of the climate crisis, through climate impacts, through the whole question of water sharing, geopolitical dynamics that are highly rooted in colonial patterns, and a lot of disconnect on many different levels – along with politics that are interfering and media that are sharing polarizing stories.
And so a few years ago, we founded a platform for the civil society, so people who are on the ground doing fantastic work and are connected to the Nile as a living being and see themselves as part of that biosphere that spans these 11 countries and is highly crucial for the whole continent. To start meeting each other in a way that prioritizes getting to know other people from different places, getting to know their real story and not the story that my country tells me about them. Through a culture of dialogue and a culture of regeneration, we want to create a form of collaboration that strengthens not only individual communities, but also personal connections across these boundaries. And so a lot of beautiful things are happening right as we speak. People are starting to see that I'm part of a larger whole, I don’t just belong to my tribe or my nation-state, but I belong to the biosphere and my work as a farmer or as a coffee roaster or as an artist is as important as other professions. We’re creating that kind of joint fabric of a culture of peace, as we call it, that hopefully can act as an antidote to all the upheavals that are happening on many different topics.
When we set out a few years ago with my friends from this continent, it was clear that this was a 50 to 100 year vision. This is not something where we will see the fruits of our labor, but we can help plant the seed of like hey, we are much more than just one country fighting over water rights with another country and instead say, hey, there is another way we can connect and learn again that we have shared stories, shared culture, shared traditions, and we can get to know them again and create a narrative that goes beyond the narrative of separation.
My call to action is that we all should be curious each and every day about what we do not know yet, what we do not understand yet, what we may even fear. We should dare to go to these places together, not only alone, and open ourselves up to the unknown and find courage and fulfillment in doing so.
Kamea Chayne: Beautiful. Thank you. What is an uplifting social media account or publication you follow or a book that's been really profound for you?
Luea Ritter: So the social media account that I follow is that On Being by Krista Tippett, which I find to be a well of nourishment and inspiration and a space where I feel that a transdisciplinary approach and intersectionality are really being practiced and invited to be practiced.
Kamea Chayne: What do you tell yourself to stay motivated and inspired?
Luea Ritter: What I tell myself is to always dare to delve through my own valleys and dark moments, knowing that I will learn a lot when I go through them. And I try to reconnect to the natural sphere no matter where I am, even in the city.
Kamea Chayne: And what makes you most hopeful for our world at the moment?
Luea Ritter: Knowing that the veils have dropped and that we are learning how to be with what is and how to stay in the questions rather than rushing to fast answers. And I’m highly inspired by what Rilke said many, many years ago with his beautiful letter to the young poet ending with: “And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answer.”
Kamea Chayne: Thank you so much. We are wrapping up but green dreamer, if you want to learn more and stay updated on Luea’s work at Collective Transitions, you can head to www.collectivetransitions.com and you can also follow them on Instagram @collective_transitions and on medium at collective-transitions. Luea, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. Really loved this conversation, so I appreciate you so much. What final words of wisdom do you have for us as green dreamers?
Luea Ritter:
