Nathalie Kelley: Sporing more regenerative stories in media and entertainment (Ep441)

Written By kamea chayne
“The algorithm can’t measure how someone feels after watching television—whether they hated it or walked away feeling inspired and hopeful about life. It’s deeply concerning to me that executives and studios are increasingly relying on these numbers.”
— Nathalie Kelley

What does it mean that Hollywood and the entertainment industry are increasingly relying on AI and consumer data to make decisions about the types of stories that get funded and produced? How might we expand our perspectives on privilege so that the things we aspire to as being “better off” are more deeply rooted in what can affirm life, community, and our interconnectedness?

In this episode, we are honored to welcome Nathalie Kelley, an actress of Indigenous Peruvian descent who is passionate about using her gifts as a storyteller to advocate for a variety of issues from regenerative fashion, systemic justice for Indigenous peoples, wilderness conservation, regenerative farming and the healing power of plants and fungi.

Join us in this raw and heartfelt conversation as we explore the ways that the media, films, and stories we engage with add up to shape our cultural values and relationships — with each other and the more-than-human world.

We invite you to…

 

About our guest:

Nathalie Kelley is an actress of Indigenous Peruvian descent, most recently starring in Dynasty and The Baker and the Beauty. With a background in Social Science and Policy, Nathalie is passionate about using her gifts as a storyteller to tell stories that educate and inspire. With an Instagram following of over a million followers, she uses her platform to advocate for a variety of issues from regenerative fashion, systemic justice for Indigenous peoples, wilderness conservation, regenerative farming and the healing power of plants and fungi. Her 15 years of experience in the entertainment industry makes her a powerful voice on the current issues that are shaping our world.

Artistic credits:

Dive deeper:

Expand your lenses:

 
 
 

Independent media is more important than ever! Please consider joining our Patreon or making a one-time donation today.

 

episode transcript

Note: Our episodes are minimally edited. Please view them as open invitations to dive deeper into each resource and topic explored. This transcript has been edited for brevity and clarity.

Nathalie Kelley: Even though I was born in what is now known as Peru in the capital of Lima, my family is from deep in the Andes, from a state called Huánuco, about 3,500 kilometers above sea level, in this tiny little village called La Unión. Where my mother was born it was a mud hut with a thatched roof and no floors, no running water, maybe a four-hour walk from the road, and my grandmother had nine children in that hut. Three of those times she cut the umbilical cord herself with whatever knife was in the hut because she didn't have any medical assistance. I say that to give the context of how rural and tough my family's life was in Peru. It's so far removed from how I grew up in Sydney, Australia. 

My mother never let me forget where we were from and who we were. That had an enormous impact on the person that I am now. 

I've only been to that hut once in my life when I was 18, but it left such a huge impact on me. Just thinking of my grandmother walking up and down these Andes mountains every day with two children on her back and a Manta—the traditional cloth that we wrap around our backs, full of potatoes along with the babies.

Life was difficult for her but also rooted in the natural world, to the rhythms of life and the seasons. My grandmother was a shepherdess, so she looked after animals that grazed in the Andes and they grew all their food. There was also something beautiful in this life that was not the easiest, and my mom shared the beauty as well with us.

I grew up in this bubble where my body was in middle-class Sydney, Australia, but my spirit and my soul were always in the Andes. It was through these stories that my mom would tell me about my grandmother, my ancestors on my mother's side, and my Quechua lineage that I formed a worldview of the kind of world I would like to live in.

When I went back to Peru after living in Australia for 18 years, it was a rude awakening for me to see that these Indigenous people, the people that my mother had talked to me about my whole life, the Quechua people, were living in even greater poverty than I could have imagined and were ashamed of being Indigenous. That was cognitive dissonance for me at the time because my mother had schooled me on the fact that, even though we came from poverty, these were not always our circumstances.

Before the Spanish came to Peru, the Quechua people—under the leadership of the Incas—were master astronomers, engineers, agriculturalists, and farmers.

They had Earth laboratories, like the circles of Moray, where they were testing and creating new species of corn and potato. They were testing how different plants grew at different elevations and soil types. These were very advanced people with a deep reverence for the earth and a very sophisticated understanding of the rhythms of life and our role in the web of life as humans.

I still grieve the loss of so much knowledge, wisdom and ancestral connection. And my mom just made that world so real for me when I finally got back to Peru. It was one of those life-changing moments where I just knew deep in my soul that something wasn't right. My mother had told me about who we and the kinds of abundance we had created as Indigenous people living sovereign on our land. It hurt my soul to the core to see how different things are now and the injustices faced by my people. 

And so that for me was the big turning point, realizing I had been raised in a privileged bubble. I had known that my whole life, but I started to feel the responsibility of that privilege when I got back to Peru to see how my people were being treated and how disenfranchised they were. Their water was running out and they had no leaders to represent them. And I said, ‘I'm going to do something about this’. So I went back to Australia, enrolled in Social Science and Policy, and majored in what was called Development in the Third World at the time.

I thought there was a policy way out of this, that we had to change laws and cancel international debts. I wanted to look at this from a structural, systemic point of view. I was two months away from graduating when I suddenly had a major career shift into acting, which I won’t get into for the sake of time. But fast forward 15 years later, I had achieved a bit of success as an actress, and suddenly I had forgotten the purpose of my privilege.

I'm on this generic course that actresses move towards “success”. And I'm very unfulfilled, unhappy, and spiritually something was off. And that's when the fires in Australia happened, and that’s when everything crystallized for me. The importance of returning to my roots and the values that my mother instilled in me at a young age, the love, respect, and reverence for my Indigenous culture, my pride in being Quechua, and needing to step into a leadership position as an Indigenous woman.

All of that crystallized for me and the urgency of the climate crisis, the realization that it was all connected. So that was in 2020, and since then I have done far less acting than I have, I’m now stepping into this new responsibility in my life which is to use my platform to uplift the voices of people not being heard, including the more-than-human world. That looks like platforming the rights of Indigenous people, the stories and the cosmovisions of Indigenous people, the rights of rivers and ecosystems in the Amazon, for example, where I was living last year. 

I'm finding a new purpose in my talent as a storyteller because that's what acting is—storytelling for those whose stories are being ignored.

Kamea Chayne: Wow, what a story and thank you for sharing all of this about your background and inspirations and your story of returning to your belongings and also recognizing that it's not like a romanticized story of returning, but also coming to see the realities of how things are today. And to push back against and also this recognition that to an extent, at least everybody has to play this game to survive. And I think in some industries, it's even more explicit than in others. And for you, I know something that has become a key focus of yours is being critical of the stories that Hollywood is spending so much money to tell. Here I think about our past critiques of, for example, institutionalized science and how the biases—in terms of what types of research get funded—and therefore what directions of knowledge have the potential to gain more credibility, are then also skewed. So there's that bigger picture of knowledge production to critique.

As you've started touching on here, there is a similar big picture to challenge when it comes to Hollywood, storytelling, and entertainment. So I would love for you to expand on what the bigger meta-narrative that Hollywood and the entertainment space are skewed towards. And what have you felt called to unpack and push back against?

Nathalie Kelley: Hollywood is the embodiment of American culture. I wasn't raised in American culture, but I was very aware of it when it was being shown to me on TV when I was growing up. And there are parts of it that I've felt seduced by, but then there was a lot of it I could feel intuitively I was rejecting and that I didn't like. It's crazy to me that I have made my living being a part of this propaganda machine because I've been able to see through it since I was young. Even if I have partaken in it and I'm very much a part of it, I can still see through it.

It does deeply worry me what kind of values this culture—this enormous monoculture—is spreading to the world. Values of consumerism, patriarchy, and the glorification of violence against women. The glorification of violence in general and the normalization of war, violent men. The deeply troubling Western Eurocentric accounts of history and perspectives on history, the centring of Eurocentric white culture and white men. Just so you know, this is the list that I sent my agents once. I said, ‘Okay, if a script comes along your way, just so you know whether or not to send it to me, here's the checklist.’ If it does any of these things, I can't or won't do it. Let's just say I haven't received a lot of scripts since. Because that just sums up the whole vibe of Hollywood. That's what they're doing and they don't even know it.

I'm not even saying there's one evil person at the top deciding all of this. This is how much we're all just embedded in this collective illusion that this is progress, that this is something that the rest of the world should aspire to. That's the dangerous joke that I'm trying to get everybody to see through. They've sold us this absolute lie. Look at these countries where consumerism is off the charts. Look at this so-called progressive, “first world country” like Australia, where everybody is supposedly well-off and wealthy and has disposable income and can buy all these consumer goods.

The average salary is—I don't know what—but something very good compared to the rest of the world. Well, it's also got one of the highest rates of suicide in the world. Look at America, the so-called pinnacle of “modernity” and “progress” with school shootings and civil chaos. It's not all that we have hyped it up to be. Part of my job is to dismantle this illusion from within and use the tools that have been given to me in this system to tell different kinds of stories because we don't want monocultures of anything. We don't want monocultures of crops, animals, or stories. And so I'm trying to, from within, diversify the kind of stories we're telling.

I'm trying to bring in new narratives from a feminine, matriarchal paradigm—stories of radical compassion, mutual liberation, rest, silence, stillness, forgiveness, and contemplation.

But it's hard when the whole framework of Hollywood is built on conflict. Even in writing a story, it's like, where's the conflict? And it's true, we need that polarity in a story and we—as in human stories—have that polarity. But it's been skewed towards these patriarchal, masculine, Western values. I'm excited to be witnessing a time in Hollywood where that's starting to change before my eyes, after almost 20 years of being here. I’ll leave it at that. 

Kamea Chayne: I'm interested in hearing more about the process of pitching story ideas to producers and sponsors or whoever has more of a say in terms of what receives funding to get produced. And also the tension between the stories that you think have disproportionately been shoved aside, but that deserve the spotlight if we want to relearn what it means to live as regenerative beings with this Earth, versus what ends up being produced.

I know there are multiple threads here, so I welcome you to take this in whatever direction speaks to you right now. But I'm also thinking about this relationship between consumer demand. Certain projects are being greenlit for funding because they have greater potential for return on investment, given that audience demand already exists. This contrasts with the ways producers also have the power to drive demand and bring to life stories that people didn't even know they needed—stories that might start trends, shift perspectives, shape appetites, and cultivate tastes for new knowledge, curiosities, and values. I’m curious what comes to mind for you here.

Nathalie Kelley: The challenge that we're facing now as storytellers in Hollywood is AI and algorithms, and what they are telling studio heads and executives about what we want to watch. Whereas before you might have had some luck pitching a show to a room of producers and maybe you connect with one of them on a human level, and they get your story and they decide to champion it. But now we are pitching to algorithms or executives who are beholden to these algorithms. Because at the end of the day, what is the goal of an executive at a studio, whether it's Amazon, Netflix, or ABC? It's to make their corporation money and to win advertisements or support from corporations. And so really it's just about the bottom line. 

But before, you might have had somebody saying, ‘Well, maybe we'll give this idea a shot because who knows it could land on some human level.’ Now you're arguing against this data that they're showing you and they say, ‘Sorry, but your reality show about moving to the Amazon and building a regenerative ecovillage, our data is showing that that's not going to appeal to people. Our data is showing that what people want right now is shows or documentaries or reality TV about pedophilia, do you have anything along those lines?’ That's literally what I got told when I pitched the show about the Ecovillage and the Amazon because I won't even give that other show promotion.

They've got these algorithms telling them what they want to watch, though most people don't. And that's because, if you think about it if you're given this huge buffet and there's this incredibly unhealthy, naughty, maybe has MSG added so it kind of tastes good food, you're going to binge on it because that's where our taste level is at culturally. As a society, those of us that have allowed ourselves to be programmed by this consumer monoculture, have been programmed to want more. So more action, more violence, more serial killers, more exposés on pedophiles. And at some point, it's enough. Haven't we done this already? How many more of these can we do? How many more scripts about hitmen can I read?

I'm just so incensed by their lack of originality and creativity. And it's scary because now you're not even getting a chance to pitch to a human. They're just going back to their numbers and saying, the algorithm's telling us that people want this. And that to me makes me very pessimistic. But at the same time, I remain optimistic because I know that pendulums swing.

The algorithm can't measure how someone feels after watching television—whether they hated it or walked away feeling inspired and hopeful about life. It's deeply concerning to me that executives and studios are increasingly relying on these numbers.

But at the same time, I know that once you gorge yourself on fast food, what do you want to do at some point down the line? You need a detox from that. You want good food, you want nourishing food. And so I feel confident that the pendulum is going to swing eventually and people are going to start seeking nourishing stories. Content is like food for our brain, for our consciousness. So when we're gorging ourselves on violence and murder and gore, eventually we're going to start to crave something a little more nourishing for our souls and our spirit, a more beautiful, hopeful vision of the future. And so that's where, as a storyteller, I'm gearing up and getting my stories lined up and ready to pitch because I know that the time is coming.

Kamea Chayne: This is interesting because it does kind of answer that question in terms of how stories are disproportionately being produced right now based on factors that are pretty much mostly data and ROI (Return on Investment) driven. So, ROI driven versus what are these stories telling and what impacts can they have on the world? If it is based on that bottom line, then it feels like it's just going to reinforce the trends that are already happening. 

In an ideal world, I see a dance between stories and audience appetite where they both influence each other. So there are going to be some experimental storytelling and some bold storytelling, sharing alternative narratives and values that might be more grounding, healing and regenerative. That then shifts the audience's cravings and appetite for what people want. And then that in turn feeds back into the storytelling aspect.

So it's kind of like a both/and, and not so heavily reliant on audience or consumer demand alone. Like the food analogy, I think about sugar cravings—if people have diets where they're used to consuming a lot of refined sugars, then they're going to crave more sugar. So if we just listen to that craving, then that's not necessarily what's going to be the most healthy or life-affirming for my body. So I see this parallel in terms of the analogy of food for our consciousness and how the world of storytelling is playing out in a way that is not very healthy for our collective consciousness right now.

Nathalie Kelley: We have a responsibility with our content appetites. What are we telling the algorithm we want to see? We are consciously creating this culture as well. So just something to think about the next time you tune into Netflix or Amazon.

Kamea Chayne: Right. And with this, I know you've talked about how platforms of storytelling are a lot more democratized today because the barriers to entry are lower for a lot of people to be able to record, edit, and publish to social media directly from our phones—for those of us with the privilege of access to phones and the internet—rather than having to go through a lot of these layers of power to get our voices and stories out there.

We’ve talked about this through the lens of news media before, but I wonder what you would like to elaborate on in terms of how power has shifted in the storytelling and entertainment space. And also how do we sit with this paradox that storytelling and access to platforms are more democratized than before? At the same time, mega-corporations like Netflix and Meta and a handful of other production companies with the greatest reach with their tentacles of influence are continuing to monopolize and consolidate power.

Nathalie Kelley: I have a lot of critiques and negative things to say about social media. And there was a while that I was ready to quit because it felt like a toxic space. I didn't feel like I was using it right. And then I started to shift my relationship to it and use it as an educational tool, a way to share information that you probably were not going to get anywhere else. There's this global corporate stranglehold on everything we do in life, including the stories that are allowed to be shared.

I experienced shadow banning (a social media content moderation technique that makes a user's posts or comments less visible or hidden from others without their knowledge). I almost completely lost heart and just quit for good because it felt exhausting to be spending weeks researching and editing and making these videos that I know are about important things, like the threat of losing biomes, the Amazon, due to our complicit roles in that, in the Western world. These things deserve to be shared.

I watched in real-time as a post about deforestation barely received a fraction of the views compared to one of me in a bikini.

I did a very cheeky post where I edited my boobs out, but I'm topless to highlight that point. And today it's the most-watched thing on my Instagram. And that just says so much about what they want us to see, what the algorithm wants us to look at and get distracted by. 

I thought, is this democratization of stories even a good thing now? Because now there's so much more noise too. You have to wade through so much narcissism, ego, temptations to shop, and consumerism. Is it worth wading through that to get some little nuggets of golden information? I don't know. Are we going to be okay telling our children that we used precious, vital water in ecosystems where water is scarce for AC cooling for data centers so that we could have continuous access to Instagram and Only Fans?

I started to not believe in the hype of it all. Maybe it's not a good thing that we all have access to this and we can all get our voices heard because maybe not everybody's voice deserves to be heard right now. And then, I regained hope when I saw amazing storytellers emerging out of places like the Amazon, using this tool the way it's supposed to be used to inspire, educate, raise awareness, call attention to, and expose. And then I think maybe it is worth it right now for us to get out a story that feels like none of the mainstream media sources are willing to platform and spotlight.

Kamea Chayne: This feels like a recurring message from several of our guests on the show, which is to be discerning in terms of using social media as a tool, rather than being consumed and used by the platform, and returning to what our intentions are of coming here to share stuff. Because otherwise, there is so much information overload that feeds into the attention economy.

In many ways, it does feel like just a rearrangement within the pyramid scheme where whose voices get the most attention on these platforms. And I feel like in some ways that still is very much reflective of the dominant culture in terms of consumerism and all the values represented by and reflective of Hollywood that we were talking about earlier. 

I want to bring all of this back to you again because I know it's never easy to go against dominant currents and to go against the grain. So I'd love to hear more about your experience as an influencer and storyteller with a large platform, but one who is consciously using it to share about causes that challenge power and core mainstream values like consumerism that the broader industry contributes to.

I know you talked about shadow banning and other things that feel discouraging, but what goes on behind the scenes for you in your decision-making process as you straddle being in this space at the forefront of driving pop culture while being extra discerning about the types of partnerships and stories you take on?

Nathalie Kelley: My main obstacle has been this shadow banning, but at first it got to me because my ego was taking a big hit. I thought, what's the point of making something if barely anyone sees it? So I wanted to be seen and I felt like I wasn't getting seen. And then I let that go and realized that this is the price I have to pay for speaking truth to these things that the dominant narrative doesn't want you to hear. And I just trust in the process that eventually at the right time, the message will come out via me or somebody else. I'm not that important in this whole thing and there's a larger message. I'm just grateful to have a little bit of a platform to be able to share some of the messages that I receive. 

You asked about my decision process, and it's very intuitive and evolving. In the beginning, I was like, what do people need to hear about right now? I felt almost like a teacher. Then I think my energy got a bit nagging because I was like, why aren't we composting? And then my message started to evolve and I started to channel into how to share the message. I need to bring in my skill as an entertainer here, to use humor and other tools in the toolbox apart from just finger-wagging at people. So, then I started to tune into things that felt important to me, like soil health, the importance of fungi, deforestation, et cetera. I realized that the message was almost getting too convoluted because I care about everything and so I wanted to educate everyone on everything.

I’m a systems thinker and I went to university for social science and policy, I realized that instead of talking about all these symptoms, I need to get to the core of what is ailing us as a species. Yes, the water is contaminated. Yes, there are weapons of mass destruction being sprayed on our food. Yes, soil health is declining and there's terrible deforestation happening all over the world. But what is really at the heart of that? That's what I need to story-tell on. This is what I started to channel. And this story started to emerge about the globalized economic system as the big boogeyman.

We've been pointing our fingers and it all comes under that banner. This death economy that we have subscribed to and believe is the only way to live. And then I was connected to Helena Norberg-Hodge and I read her amazing books, Ancient Futures and Local Is Our Future. I realized that she had been talking about this issue for 50 years. She's been banging on this drum, telling the story. And she's inspired a lot of people. I was honored to be introduced to her. And I realized that actually what she is saying and what she has been saying for the last 50 years, this is the message that I want to start embodying and sharing with the world. 

If we can transform this death economy, if we can reimagine this globalized economic system, then the water, the soil, and the forests will be taken care of innately as part of the process.

It simplified things for me. Now it's sad because I have to say no to a lot of people who want me to post about their specific issues and struggles. I try wherever I can, but I realized from years of refining this message and from making decisions and mistakes and seeing what works and seeing what doesn't, I've got to distill it to the one most important thing. For me, it comes down to this collective illusion that we are all under this spell. And a spell is a story.

We have been fed this story because of the consumer monoculture in Hollywood that has shoved it down our throats our whole lives. That this is the only way, that this is progress, that the way we're living and the kind of image of modernity that they're selling us is some inevitable part of human evolution. I realized my job is to break that spell with counterspells and counter-stories—new ways of being that reimagine old ways in the context of this new world.

So that's been my journey—thanks for following me along with it. I've wanted to quit many times. I feel like I'm close to something now, and it's resonating more and more. I'm seeing the shadow bans start to fade away because I’m trying to tell stories in a new way as well. And I think that has been landing on people beautifully and I'm excited to see where it goes.

Kamea Chayne: Thank you for all that you've done and all that you do, and for sharing your learning lessons throughout this journey. I agree, that it can be very overwhelming to think about all of these symptoms of problems. And I do think an “all of the above” approach is important. So we still need the specialists who are campaigning for very specific issues, and at the same time, we also need more people like you who are connecting the threads between them all and speaking to their deeper root causes.

Nat Kelley: I agree and I want to say that Helena and I used to get into an argument because she would say, ‘Why are you wasting your time worrying about this forest and this place? It's about the bigger picture!’ I would get so angry, and I would say, 'But this forest and this river are important to me—this ecosystem, these animals, this fungi.' I said exactly what you were saying about how important it is for us to have champions for all these individual things.

As more time goes by, I also hear the wisdom of what Helena is saying. If we miss the forest for the trees, then we're not gonna achieve our desired goal. And so part of this message now, I feel like the goal is to unify all of us. That care about all these specific things and say, hey, let's join together against our common enemy and we can get it all taken care of. And it's not a person, it's a system. And I think that is also appealing too for people.

Kamea Chayne: Absolutely. Well, we are coming to a close for our main conversation. To come full circle here, I remember in a past episode a few years ago, Charles Eisenstein questioned the word “privilege”, and that has stayed with me ever since. This idea is that if we look at a billionaire, for example, and call that privilege, then we're also implicitly reinforcing certain values. And this presumption that having billions of dollars is something that everybody should aspire to because they're supposedly better off.

In this context of a pyramid scheme, they are, of course, better off in many ways, given their access to financial resources and influence. But I don't personally aspire to that, because what I see as better off is so much more than that. So I've been curious to reorient my aspirations and how I understand privilege in much more grounded and holistic ways, like questions of what can bring us fulfillment, joy, belonging, vitality, community, connectedness, and so on. 

So as we come to a wrap here, I'm curious to hear about how your personal transformations in your values and worldviews may also have then changed the type of life and community that you dream of, and even your ideas of fun or desires, leisure activities, curiosities, passion projects, and so on. How have you learned to listen to your heart more in these ways?

Nathalie Kelley: I love how Charles Eisenstein makes us think differently about concepts that we think we understand. Some would say it was a privilege for me to have been raised in Sydney, Australia, this very wealthy city, and go to all these so-called good schools and have this so-called wonderful Western education. Those are privileges that I recognize and I try to take the responsibility that comes with that very seriously. I realize it's a privilege to be able to live ancestrally on the land and get a non-Western education that includes understanding the interconnectivity of the web of life and all the different webs of relations that we exist in.

To be able to name constellations and know which bird song tells you when is the right time to start planting, as they do in Lake Titicaca in Peru. I think it’s important to reimagine this idea of privilege as Charles Eisenstein said. I'm seeing it get rewritten in my own life in terms of pleasures and desires. This time every year I'm packing up to go, or returning rather, from a festival called Burning Man that I started to go to very early on when I was in my early twenties.

I'm about to turn 40 now, so I've had a long-standing relationship with this festival and got to appreciate it for its original values. Later I came to be disillusioned by everything it's turned into and my complicity in that. This year, I was like ‘There’s no chance of me going’. And I was like, why would I want to get on a plane to get in a diesel car or RV to drive to the middle of the desert and burn a generator to look at some artificial lights when I could be here in the Catskills dipping in freshwater pools, collecting mushrooms, foraging and watching the deer and the woodchucks? I feel like I've changed on a cellular level. 

As I re-indigenize myself and unlearn all the ways Western civilization has sold me a false version of privilege, I'm working to reconnect with how my ancestors lived. To me, that’s the ultimate privilege—being able to live off the land and grow my own food.

To know the songs of all the plants is a privilege and luxury to me now. 

Kamea Chayne: What has been one of the most impactful books you've read or publications you follow?

Nathalie Kelley: Ancient Futures and Local Is Our Future, by Helena Norberg-Hodge.

Kamea Chayne: What is a personal motto, mantra, or practice you engage with to stay grounded?

Nathalie Kelley: I like to repeat to myself, ‘I have time.’

Kamea Chayne: And what is one of your greatest sources of inspiration at the moment?

Nathalie Kelley: I have a new kitten that I'm currently playing with as we talk. I'm realizing that she's motivated by joy and play and how that's such good medicine for us as humans to find more joyfulness and playfulness if we want to get things done.

Kamea Chayne: Well, Green Dreamer, we are coming to a close here, but to learn more and stay updated on Nat's work, you can head to our show notes at greendreamer.com for additional links to Nat's social channels. And Nat, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. It's been an honor to have you and I’m feeling very inspired by everything you've learned and everything that you continue to share with the world. For now, as we're wrapping up, what final words of wisdom do you have for us as Green Dreamers?

Nathalie Kelley: I just want to share my gratitude for being on this show. I listen to it personally and I'm always inspired by your thoughtful conversations, it gives me a lot of comfort to know that there's a community out there that is dreaming in this way. And so it's an honor to be part of this dream and to weave these dreams into being with all of you. Thank you.

 
kamea chayne

Kamea Chayne is a creative, writer, and the host of Green Dreamer Podcast.

Next

adrienne maree brown: Sowing seeds of love in our “garden of ideas” (Ep440)